User A
A UBI under capitalism would just be used as an excuse to cut all social programs by the capitalists that own everything in the economy. Because they would still need worker insecurity to ensure that workers will still be forced to make there profits for them.
A UBI by it's self is not enough to ensure the rights of working people. Because the capitalist class still holds all the power and can make all the decisions in the economy that effects everyones lives because they own everything.
A UBI under a capitalist economy would have a constant antagonism between the owners of everything that don't want to pay for the UBI and everyone else that is dependent on the ubi to survive. And In end the owner class would win this struggle because they still hold the power over the economy.
We need a complete change in the economy from capitalism to socialism to ensure workers rights are protected. The working class should hold the power not the capitalist class.
Here's a few videos explaining the limits of UBI under capitalism
1.) https://youtu.be/WcLelEGYQGM
2.) https://youtu.be/EKFE6rVHyJQ
User B
If we got a $1000/mo uni my rent would probably go up 1000 right along with groceries and everything else and I'd find myself even more poor.
User C replying to User B
No lol that’s not how the world works
User B
Also you're right it's not I was being a bit hyperbolic for flair. However it is kind of the MO of capitalist to see that money as theirs already. If you think inflation is bad now . . .
I'm preeetty sure https://youtu.be/6t7h2VyEm4M
User D replying to User A
I love this subreddit, ubi in the short term would be kinda nice but even for this bandaid solution it has to be fought for, no shot the capitalist class will simply give in. For welfare programs like anything comparable to UBI to exist we must build a socialist society and strip oligarchs of their power.
OP still has lib brain and thinks if we just make demands and propose good ideas things will get done, thats not how the world works unfortunately.
User C replying to User D
I didn’t say we should just make demands and propose good ideas lol I was incredibly precise
Pathetic strawmanning - gtfo
User E
Thank you! I'm tired of posting this sort of counter-sentiment.
UBI (or alternative) is inevitable, but under capitalism it will be used as a kugel against that people who need it most.
I appreciate people's well intentioned optimism and passion about the subject, but we've got a lot of work to do before that happens.
User C replying to User E
So was the CTC used as a kugel?
You must be glad it ended and I assume you oppose its reinstatement for the same reason you oppose UBI?
Pretty indefensible position though considering how much the CTC slashed child poverty
User E replying to User C
Literally every mainstream UBI proposal has said that it will be implemented while slashing other parts of the social safety net.
And that's the IDEALISTIC version compared to what will actually be implemented.
What makes you think that these ghouls in office would do something good without radical pressure? Focus on organizing labor and building radical power.. not just wishing that people working for the billionaires will work for you because you have a good idea.
User C replying to User E
Link to those proposals?
User E replying to User C
Literally the poster child for bad UBI: https://www.vox.com/first-person/2019/12/19/21026925/andrew-yang-disability-policy
And every other capitalist pushing UBI.
Regardless, you are missing the forest from the trees. Meaningful change isn't going to happen via "voting right" in federal elections or coming up with "really good policy ideas". It's going to happen via direct action, and a militant labor movement. Making billionaires and politicians afraid.
We need to focus on building labor power, and once we achieve that then we can get everyone what they need.
A UBI that is implemented before that happens will be a bad faith poison pill.
User F replying to User A
Is it really fair to use your mod powers to push your perspective to the top
User G replying to User A
I have always thought UBI is just a necessary stepping stone, one that could allow the working class enough room to breathe and think to organize and devise a better system. To take the pressure off people just enough to hopefully educate and be educated in order to critically reimagine our socioeconomic system. I never assumed UBI was thought to be a solution or end goal. Personally I'm a proponent of resource based economy, though socialism can be another helpful stepping stone. What are your thoughts on UBI in this context?
User H replying to User G
It's a cute idea but you already said why it will never happen. It's a necessary stepping stone to empower the working class.
User G replying to User H
Yeah clearly that's why it hasn't happened so far, aside from small trials (like the city of Stockton, CA). I'm not (usually) a doomer but I don't smoke hopium either... Never say never. I think it's great that more people are interested in unionizing and are in general gaining more class consciousness, I would really like to see more people spreading the idea of transitioning businesses to worker owned co-ops.
User H replying to User G
This is the thing though. In order for workers to gain meaningful power capitalists must loose it. This is just how power dynamics work. Workers gaining power by definition means an economic revolution will need to happen. A meaningful UBI cannot exist under capitalism because without coercion capitalism just doesn't work.
User A replying to User G
Yea I don't disagree with that assessment i only wanted to point out that UBI under capitalism has limits and shouldn't be an end goal.
User C replying to User A
Nobody ever said it was an end goal.
Quit fighting ghosts
User C replying to User A
MLK would disagree with you and it’s outrageous that you felt compelled to reply as a mod and pin this response
Couldn’t hack it in the comments as a regular user smh
User A replying to User C
Also don't miss use the report button this comment isn't "trolling"
User C replying to User A
You’re misusing mod abilities so… 🤷
User A replying to User C
No it isn't outrageous to make a comment explaining that UBI under capitalism won't work and also sharing sources of information about the topic don't know why that bothers you.
Also MLK was a socialist that though "capitalism outlived it's usefulness" so no he wouldn't have disagreed
User C replying to User A
MLK supported the guaranteed income. He supported separating pay from work and he would support UBI now.
Communism forgets that life is individual. Capitalism forgets that life is social, and the Kingdom of Brotherhood is found neither in the thesis of Communism nor the antithesis of capitalism but in a higher synthesis. - MLK
User A replying to User C
I never said MLK was a Communist only that he thought capitalism need to go I also never claimed he didn't support UBI.
I'm only trying to explain that UBI under capitalism won't solve all our problems and without changing who holds power In the economy it's not going to work
User C replying to User A
You’re too mired in “isms”
We need concrete policies. Not just 'isms.'
UBI is a concrete policy that will unequivocally help and create a more egalitarian society.
So is universal healthcare.
Medical debt cancellation is also necessary.
So is free public college.
And the full cancellation of student debt.
We need extensive housing reform, including (but not limited to) the banning of corporate & international ownership of residential properties, a creation of a pathway of ownership for current rental tenants (including a way to get equity out of the years of rent already paid), banning the practice of individual investors hoarding property, etc.
If you frame everything as an 'ism' then it's too easy for people to disagree or dismiss what you're saying, and too hard for others to determine exactly what policies you're proposing.
We must be clear and concise in our demands, and demand actionable policies that legislators can implement.
User H replying to User C
You're absolutely right but you fail to understand all of this will never happen in an economy where a capitalist class holds the power. They won't let it happen. Why would they? You are taking money from their pockets and removing the power they have over their workers. You don't understand that in order to get all of this capitalists will need to loose their power over our lives. You forget the cruelty is the actual point.
Ubi is a concrete policy but you provide no concrete methodology to get those policies. I don't think there is a methodology that exists while capitalists push the buttons.
User C replying to User H [Removed Comment]
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User H replying to User C
You really don't get it. You think the working class are the only ones capable of violence. You forget to remember that as throughout history, the established state with a monopoly on legal use of force will use that force to maintain that state. You are advocating for systemic changes but you are unwilling to do the hard part to bring those changes about. That's why they'll never actually happen.
User C replying to User H [Removed Comment]
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User H replying to User C

The hard part is electoral reform and winning elections and implementing these policies

No, the hard part is going to be when the capitalists come to take back what you stole if they even let you ever have it in the first place.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of my position. All of the policies you advocate for I want. My position is that these policies are utopian under our current economic system and that systemic change of that system is not possible without workers gaining power over capitalists. I also don't think they'll just give us that power. The cruelty of capitalism is the point.

Get real lol

Only one of us has their head in the clouds.